Talk:Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus

Trying to understand edits to the infobox

Old version (10:33, 14 February 2022)

New version (04:43, 27 February 2022)

Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus Façade of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Former names Victoria Terminus Bori Bunder Railway Station Alternative names Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus (official) General information Architectural style Indo-Saracenic Victorian Gothic Revival Address Fort, Mumbai, Maharashtra, 400001 Town or city Mumbai, Maharashtra Country India Coordinates 18.9398°N 72.8354°E / 18.9398; 72.8354 Construction started 1878 Completed May 1888 (1888-05) Cost ₹1,614,000 (US$19,000) (at the time) now ₹2,013 million (US$24 million) Client Central Railway Design and construction Architect(s) Frederick William Stevens, Axel Haig Engineer Wilson Bell Website https://cr.indianrailways.gov.in/ UNESCO World Heritage Site Criteria Cultural: ii, iv Reference 945 Inscription 2004 (28th Session) Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Indian Railways Terminus General information Location Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Area, Fort, Mumbai, Maharashtra 400001 India Coordinates 18.9398°N 72.8355°E / 18.9398; 72.8355 Owned by Indian Railways Operated by Central Railway zone Line(s) Mumbai–Nagpur–Howrah line Mumbai–Chennai line Mumbai-Ahmednagar railway line via Kalyan was also in planning stage with survey of this project carried out on 1970, 2000, 2014 etc. Platforms 18 Tracks 40 (Multiple) Connections Construction Structure type At-grade Platform levels 01 Parking Yes Other information Station code CSTM BBVT (former) Zone(s) Central Railway zone Division(s) Mumbai CR Website https://cr.indianrailways.gov.in/ History Opened May 1853 (1853-05) Rebuilt May 1888 (1888-05) Electrified 25 kV AC 50 Hz Previous names Victoria Terminus Railway Station Bori Bunder railway station Location Mumbai CSTM Location within India Mumbai CSTM Mumbai CSTM (Mumbai) Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Mumbai Suburban Railway station General information Location Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Area, Fort, Mumbai, Maharashtra 400001 India Coordinates 18.9398°N 72.8355°E / 18.9398; 72.8355 Owned by Indian Railways Line(s) Central Line, Harbour Line Platforms 18 Tracks Multiple Connections Mumbai Metro Construction Structure type At-grade Platform levels 01 Parking Yes Other information Station code ST VT (former) Zone(s) Central Railway zone Division(s) Mumbai CR Fare zone Central Railway zone History Opened 1853 (1853) Rebuilt 1887 (1887) Electrified 25 kV 50 Hz AC Previous names Victoria Terminus railway station Bori Bunder railway station Services Preceding station Mumbai Suburban Railway Following station Terminus Central line Masjid towards Kasara or Khopoli Harbour line Masjid towards Goregaon or Panvel Route map to Bhusawal–Kalyan section Kasara Umbermali Khardi Thansit Atgaon Asangaon Vasind Bhatsa River Khadavli Kalu River Titwala Ambivli Ulhas River Shahad Waldhuni River Vithalwadi Kalyan Junction Ulhasnagar Thakurli Ambarnath Dombivli Badlapur to Ahmedabad-Mumbai main Line Vangani Western line Vasai Road Shelu Juchandra Neral Junction to Matheran Kaman Road Bhivpuri Road Kharbav Karjat Bhiwandi Road to Panvel Ulhas River Palasdari to Mumbai Dadar– Solapur section Kopar Kelavli Diva Junction Dolavli Dativali Lowjee Nilaje Khopoli Taloje Panchnand to Karjat Mumbra Navde Road Kalwa Kalamboli to Trans-Harbour line Panvel to Harbour line Thane Creek Somatne Thane Rasayani Trans-Harbour line Apta Mulund Jite Nahur Hamrapur Bhandup Pen Kanjur Marg Kasu Vikhroli Nagothane Line 1 to Versova Ghatkopar Nidi Vidyavihar Roha LTT to Konkan Railway Kurla Sion Harbour line Harbour line to Goregaon Western line to Dahanu Road Matunga Dadar planned Monorail Prabhadevi   Parel Western line to Churchgate Currey Road Chinchpokli Byculla Harbour line Sandhurst Road Masjid Line 3 Mumbai CSMT Konkan Railway to Roha to Uran Panvel Konkan Railway to Karjat and Vasai Road Khandeshwar Mansarovar Taloja River Kharghar CBD Belapur Port Line to Uran Western line to Dahanu Road Seawoods–Darave planned extension to Borivali Nerul Goregaon Juinagar Ram Mandir Trans-Harbour line to Thane Jogeshwari Sanpada Line 1 Andheri Vashi Sahar Airport Vile Parle Thane Creek Sahar Airport Santacruz Mankhurd Khar Road Govandi Chembur Line 1 Bandra Tilak Nagar Mithi River Central line to Thane Mahim Junction Kurla LTT Western line to Churchgate Central line Chunabhatti King's Circle Guru Tegh Bahadur Nagar   Line 1 Wadala Road Line 1 Sewri Cotton Green Reay Road Dockyard Road Central line Sandhurst Road Masjid Line 3 Mumbai CSMT

Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus Façade of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Former names Victoria Terminus Bori Bunder Railway Station Alternative names Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus (official) General information Architectural style Indo-Saracenic Victorian Gothic Revival Address Fort, Mumbai, Maharashtra, 400001 Town or city Mumbai, Maharashtra Country India Coordinates 18.9398°N 72.8354°E / 18.9398; 72.8354 Construction started 1878 Completed May 1888 (1888-05) Cost ₹1,614,000 (US$19,000) (at the time) now ₹2,013 million (US$24 million) Client Central Railway Design and construction Architect(s) Frederick William Stevens, Axel Haig Engineer Wilson Bell Website https://cr.indianrailways.gov.in/ UNESCO World Heritage Site Criteria Cultural: ii, iv Reference 945 Inscription 2004 (28th Session) Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Indian Railways Terminus General information Location Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Area, Fort, Mumbai, Maharashtra 400001 India Coordinates 18.9398°N 72.8355°E / 18.9398; 72.8355 Owned by Indian Railways Operated by Central Railway zone Line(s) Mumbai–Nagpur–Howrah line Mumbai–Chennai line Mumbai-Ahmednagar railway line via Kalyan was also in planning stage with survey of this project carried out on 1970, 2000, 2014 etc. Platforms 18 Tracks 40 (Multiple) Connections Construction Structure type At-grade Platform levels 01 Parking Yes Other information Station code CSTM BBVT (former) Zone(s) Central Railway zone Division(s) Mumbai CR Website https://cr.indianrailways.gov.in/ History Opened May 1853 (1853-05) Rebuilt May 1888 (1888-05) Electrified 25 kV AC 50 Hz Previous names Victoria Terminus Railway Station Bori Bunder railway station Location Mumbai CSTM Location within India Mumbai CSTM Mumbai CSTM (Mumbai)

Comparing the two versions

• Old version:
  • Infobox historic building
  • Infobox station
  • Infobox station
• New version:
  • Infobox historic building
  • Infobox station

So it would be possible to put features from the second infobox station in the old version into the lone infobox station in the new version. Is it worth doing?-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 23 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 06:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

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Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus → Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus – 1) Mumbai's Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus renamed to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus, 2) Updated Name Image 49.32.234.130 (talk) 12:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - Not the WP:COMMONNAME at the moment. "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" (with quotes) yields 7,81,000 hits in Google while "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus" (with quotes) yields 3,59,000 hits only. Some more time IMO. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose (I was pinged) I don't have access to user:Fylindfotberserk's statistics, but I can attempt an a priori argument. Chatrapati means one entitled to use a chatraa or the parasol of royal paraphernalia, i.e. the king. Although Shivaji was in his early career only a jagirdar, a glorified absentee landlord, of the Mughals (as were his father Shahaji and brother Venkoji of Bijapur and Tanjore respectively) and later a semi-independent chieftain in the Maratha uplands, or hill country, this form of grade inflation was common. But to add "maharaj," or His Majesty (related to Maharaja, king or ruler) sounds redundant. In other words, even if I were to forgive the logic of rebranding a railway station built by late 19th-century British technology after a 17th-century Indian ruler, I would find the formulation His Majesty King Shivaji Terminus not something that would roll off the tongue, and thereby make a discernible contribution to WP:COMMONNAME statistics. The article Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760) section "Bijapur, Marathas, Mughals" has more on the background to the logic. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:43, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  I note, furthermore: our competition, viz. UNESCO's World Heritage site and Encyclopedia Britannica, also do not have "Maharaj". See Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (Britannica) and Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (formerly Victoria Terminus) (UNESCO) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose At best too soon. Johnbod (talk) 21:38, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 29 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 11:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

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Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus → Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus – As per WP:NAMECHANGES, extra weight is given to sources written after the name change. Here is an article from The Economic Times from 27 June 2023 that uses the new, official name. Other articles are here, here and here, all on different topics. This shows that sources published after the name change favouring the new name. Please do not argue based on Google searches, not all links on Google are reliable sources. Arnav Bhate (talk) 04:13, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - Many of the recent reliable news sources (1 January 2020 - present) after the name change (that happened in May 2017) use "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus", examples -

Indian Express dated - December 17, 2022 ; quote = "Maharashtra has convened a rally from Byculla to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus in Mumbai on Saturday"

DNA dated - Feb 09, 2023; quote = "From Gare Du Nord in Paris to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus in Mumbai

The Telegraph - 05.01.23; quote = "Panoramic view of the Mumbai Fort Area. Mumbai Municipal Corporation Building (left) and (right) Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST)

India Today - Feb 19, 2020; quote = "thanks to the Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport and the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station

Economic Times dated - Dec 16, 2022 ; quote = "The march from Jijamata Udyan to Azad Maidan near Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus"

The Times of India dated - May 4, 2023 ; quote = "revamp of New Delhi, Ahmedabad and Mumbai's Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus stations,"

Mint dated - 13 Sep 2022 ; quote = "Screen grab of Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson commenting on Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus in India"

Times Now dated - Jun 27, 2023; quote = "Ground Reality Of Mumbai Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus Railway Station At Rainy Season"

In Google books (many would be reliable for the purpose), in a period from Jan 1, 2020 to Jun 30, 2023, we get "2,630" hits for "chhatrapati shivaji terminus" for "953" hits for "chhatrapati shivaji maharaj terminus"

There would be more if checked from May 2017 onwards. Anyway per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES, which writes - "on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name when discussing the article topic in the present day, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well. Hence, I'm opposing the move. – Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Here are the statistics for each of the news sites you have listed and a few more reliable ones after June 2017

News Websites

Site	"Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" OR "CST" site:	"Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus" OR "CSMT" site:
The Indian Express	348	852
DNA	173	340
The Telegraph	37	71
India Today	138	260
Economic Times	1160	672
The Times of India	1090	1940
Mint	100	440
Times Now	120	400
Hindustan Times	295	872
The Hindu	167	303
Total	3628	6150

This shows that most news websites prefer the new name by a large margin. I would be happy to do this for any other news website you may want. On the point of Google Books, I have to agree that there are more results for the old name even in the timeframe after the name change, but I found that there were some results common to both, some results that were completely unrelated and some results that were repeated. Arnav Bhate (talk) 04:31, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

It only proves that the older name is being used widely, hence the oppose per − "on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name when discussing the article topic in the present day, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose for reasons already mentioned in the failed RfM of May 2023. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Just rejected last month! Johnbod (talk) 19:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment The airport, which was also renamed with the same logic one year later, does have the new name as the article title, Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj International Airport.

Arnav Bhate (talk) 04:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The name in the infobox

We have one more editors who keep changing the name in the infobox from "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" to "Chhatrapati Maharaj Shivaji Terminus".^{17 May,26 May (1),26 May (2),26 July,1 August,3 August} Explanations given include Fixed grammar (twice), and Changed the name in infobox to the new official name (given 6 years ago) from CST to CSMT (Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus).

Wikipedia has a policy on infoboxes: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes. The section on names in the infobox is at MOS:INFOBOXNAME, which says: It should be named the common name of the article's subject but may contain the full (official) name; this does not need to match the article's Wikipedia title. In Template:Infobox settlement it is always interpreted as: it should be named the common name of the article's subject but may contain the full (official) name in addition. The template has four name fields to cope with places having more than one name: see Template:Infobox settlement#Parameter names and descriptions.

Template:Infobox building as implemented in the article uses three name fields: name, former_names, and alternate_names. The alternate_names field is used for the "Chhatrapati Maharaj Shivaji Terminus" name. I think we could reduce the amount of drive-by disruptive edits if we used the native_name field for the "Chhatrapati Maharaj Shivaji Terminus" name, because this would put it at the top of the infobox (i.e. above the picture and the map), instead of below them as now. There is no need for the infobox template to use the name field, so I have removed it (and therefore the temptation for drive-by editors to change it).

Some recent documents by Indian Railways refer to it as "Chhatrapati Maharaj Shivaji Terminus" - see Central Railway Assets-Acquisition, Construction and Replacement for 2024-25. But other names are also used: for example "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, Mumbai" was used in this recent recruitment notice: RRC CR Apprentice Recruitment 2024 | Central Railway Apprentice (2409 Slots) Apply Online @rrccr.com.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)